by earning a degree in the field maof counseling or psychologyth from capella university, health. you'll have the knowledge to make a difference in the lives of others. let's get started at capella.edu. well, at the top of the

show, we asked you, why are you awake? producer john tower, the answers. >> bill, we've got heather. she writes, you really need a cohost. i have a lot to offer the show. a female, a lawyer, an independent, and i'm up anyways. >> actually, heather, thank you so much for your offer. the zamboni driver down at the ice rink, he already texted me, and he'll be with me next time. thanks for joining me on "way too early." now the moment we've all been waiting for. "morning joe," it starts right now. ♪ shake down 1979 we've simply made promises we can't keep. >> if anybody out there who's, quote, rich doesn't think their taxes go up, the drinks are on me. >> what republicans feel like is a little bit like charlie brown running to kick the football and lucy pulls it away. >> listen to what the american people said in the election. listen to the fact that two out of three americans believe that the wealthiest should pay a little more, and listen to your own caucus. >> this will be savagery, full-page ads, ladies, children,

veterans, simpson-bowles are doing their tricks out there. you know, hang on tight. >> oh, my. yes, hang on tight. good morning, everyone, it's monday, december 10th. oh, lord. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, author of "the new york times" best-seller, "thomas jefferson." >> number one. >> that's amazing. it's selling off the shelves. good luck trying to get one for christmas. >> i know a guy that can get you one. >> really? who? i need a few copies. >> can i say this quickly? go ahead. >> no, at the meacham residence in music city, usa, nashville, firsthand experience on this, people knock on his front door, and he sits by the fire in a cardigan sweater. do you or don't you? and people knock on the door. >> with cigars. >> little schoolchildren with their school books tied up with a belt. >> yes. >> and they come up and they

say, mr. meacham, would you sign a book for me? and they come in and he signs books by the fire. >> that is true. >> he's huge down there. >> thank you. >> do you know why willie was there? >> why's that? >> he was being inducted not into the overall vanderbilt hall of fame but the student media hall of fame. at vanderbilt. >> what does that mean? >> it's a proud group. name grantland rice mean anything to you? >> looking at me, la ti freakin' da. >> i meant that as a compliment, people knocking on the door just for a moment with jon meacham. >> by the way, they are still clapping from election night. >> good. they're not upset about the alcohol problem? >> no, no. but the last question i got was, who on the "morning joe" set reminds you most of thomas jefferson? >> oh, wow.

>> a question i must admit had not grappled with. i started thinking. i said, well, mike barnicle is john adams. >> right, he is. >> a little taller but just as grumpy. >> and i knew him. >> he knew him. >> willie geist, hamilton because, let's face it, most likely to be shot in jersey. >> that's true. >> yes. >> scarborough, commanding george washington. >> washingtonesque. >> tall. >> yes. >> dignity. >> same, 6'4", same thing, yeah. >> so clearly, it's mika brzezinski. >> really? >> when i left, they're still clapping. >> really? >> renaissance woman. >> is it the alcohol? >> i think it's more of the slaves, actually. >> the what? >> nothing. i didn't say anything. >> gotcha. >> you missed that. >> i did. >> the you're the jeffersonian. >> the art of power. the art of navigating power. >> with that, let's go to the most jeffersonian figure for the

news. >> all right. we begin this morning with new urgency in the fiscal cliff negotiations with now just 21 days to reach a deal. that's three weeks. today president obama returns to campaign mode, taking his fiscal cliff message to detroit. yesterday the president and speaker boehner met privately at the white house. their first face-to-face meeting since they agreed last week to clear everyone else out of the negotiating room. neither side revealed anything about the meeting that was part of the agreement. only saying that the lines of communication remain open. but yesterday another influential republican, senator bob corker from the senate banking committee, said his party should consider the president's position on raising tax rates on the wealthy. >> there is a growing group of folks that are looking at this and realizing that we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue before year end. i mean, we have one house, that's it. the presidency and the senate's in the democrats' hands. a lot of people are putting

forth a theory, and i actually think it has merit where you go ahead and give the president the 2% increase that he's talking about, the rate increase on the top 2%, and all of a sudden the shift goes back to entitlements. i actually am beginning to believe that is the best route for us to take. >> that's significant, and jon, that's from your home state of tennessee. you've got two republicans that are -- two republican senators who are -- haven't been the most active in trying to seek out deals, you know, in a really conservative state. it's not like there's a safe political play for them at home. >> not at all. if you want to look at a state where you could be primaried from a tea party challenge, you could do it. alexander, former governor actually two weeks ago already started his re-election to try to prevent this which a lot of people took as a sign that he was going to try to play a key role in actually making something happen. >> yeah. >> and corker's been talked

about a lot. he made a very early impression when he first got to washington as someone in the howard baker mode of slightly less ideological let's get something done. >> that's good news, right, mika? we're talking. >> fairly good jobs numbers on friday. and all indications is that if there isn't a deal -- >> can i just stop you there? not to interrupt because i hate interrupting. you know how much i hate that. >> george washington. >> i hate to interrupt. i just want to warn you, though, and i'm worried about you as the father of this -- >> educate me. >> -- tv show. >> yeah. >> you cannot say anything about the damn job numbers anymore. >> why? >> if you say oh, it's down to 2.1%, that's kind of good. they go ah! because it doesn't matter what you say. those jobs numbers, one side or the other, is going to absolutely freak out. now, silly me, i think 7.7% is better than 9.5%. i understand not as many people involved in trying to find jobs.

more people -- i understand that. but it's a big old stew. and you take it all together and go, 7.7%. but you said pretty good jobs numbers on friday. you can't say that anymore with people on both sides knocking your head off. >> well, i mean, if you look at them since over the past four years how they are, they're back to below when the president took office, which does help. it is good news. it's better than worse. all i'm saying is if they don't reach a real, some economists believe it will impact the jobs situation and those numbers. at this point i don't think both sides can afford that, can they? >> i think what you need, whenever looking at these jobs numbers, to show the restraint of mike barnicle's good friend, jack welch. and stand on the sidelines. you let the numbers speak for themselves. just let it breathe. let it breathe. like a good chardonnay. do chardonnays breathe? >> who's that?

>> senator moynihan. he said we're all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. >> never heard that one before, jon. >> if you can't talk about it, then it's just -- it's orwellian. >> it is orwellian. it's stupid. some people are still -- some people still think on the far, far, far right, very few, though. i've got to say. that it's still a week before the election. i've noticed a lot of the people on the far right, not the far, far right, willie, it's almost like they got the memo. you know, our stupidity was not rewarded on election day. so perhaps we're going to have a more fact-based view of the political scene, if not the entire world. >> bill kristol said it a couple of days ago. talked about turning down the conservative -- what do you call it -- entertainment complex? >> conservative entertainment complex. >> he said time to tone that down, and you see it from john boehner, you heard bob corker talk about it, they know that their position has changed.

they know they have to give a little bit. for the first time we're talking about raising revenue inside washington. >> mika, i'm going to look like the quote. >> take a look at this, on the sunday talk shows, they were still talking about, you know, just really almost on completely different planets. here's kevin mccarthy and senator dick durbin. take a listen. >> the president wants the rates to go up. that doesn't solve the problem, and we don't want to be back here in another year, in another ten years answering the same questions. if the president's asking for higher rates, he's asking for more more revenue. most economists believe the best way is through closing special loopholes. when you close those, it makes a fair tax process. >> i can tell you i don't want to do it. the president doesn't want to do it, but we need to solve the problem. we cannot allow the reckless position to drive this economy into another recession, a recession which the republicans will own. >> okay. so they'll blame the recession on the republicans. >> i mean, kevin mccarthy's right.

you can close a lot of loopholes. that's the way i prefer it. you look at the numbers, though, you're not going to get to a trillion dollars in revenue. this bill kristol quote, mika, bill kristol has a great column. i'm going to retweet it right now. but he says, quote, every great cause begins as a movement. this is an eric hofher quote that he applies to the gop. every great cause begins as a muchl movement, becomes a business and eventually degenerates into a racket. and that's exactly what happened. you had the great conservative revolution of 1980. and you had heritage and a lot of other organizations grow up out of that. and all the intellectual thrust politically was on the republican side from 1980 to, say, 1990. the democratic party was tired. liberalism was exhausted. but that turned into a business. we saw a couple this past week,

a couple of republican consultants got paid tens of millions of dollars. and then it becomes a racket, and that's where you have a lot of people running around saying harsh things that sell books and push ratings and lose elections. and that's where we are. conservatism is a racket for a lot of people to get very, very rich. with no thought of winning elections. >> nope. and the bill buckley climate of talking about ideas, the first neocons back before that was an epitaph -- >> irving kristol. >> the democrats who became cold war conservatives were willing to call the soviet union what it was. >> right. >> was a huge -- that was the intellectual breakthrough for the cold war. starting in 1978 with howard jarvis, the anti-statism. but you're right.

we had an era with reagan that was ratified by clinton. when he said the era of big government is over. but we still don't know quite what we're in now except that we want lots of things and we don't want to pay for them. >> and you know, mika -- >> that's exactly it. >> you see the missed opportunities. it's not just the stupid things that are said on talk radio or that are written in being books written in the blogosphere that hurts the conservative cause, it's what is not said. like, for instance, yesterday nick christoph wrote an extraordinary op-ed talking about how conservatives have a point. that the liberal welfare state actually discourages, in many cases, hard work and discourages people -- enslaves people to a life of misery. and he gave a great example of how ssi benefits actually cause

parents in the appalachians to discourage their children from taking classes to actually get good grades because that means if their children get good grades and do well in school, then they won't get their $500 or $600 a month for having a disabled child. if you have a movement that has been reduced to obama bad democrats maximumi s marxist, te nobody like irving kristol. bill's trying, to explain what this means and explain how we are right and we have been right. and our philosophy is a governing philosophy for the future, but that's been stripped away by the anti-intellectualism of the past decade and the conservative cause. do you see christoph? >> this is from "the new york

times" yesterday, profiting from a child's illiter dacy. "this is painful for a liberal to admit, but conservatives have a point when they suggest that america's safety net can sometimes entangle people in a soul-crushing dependency. our poverty programs do rescue many people, don't join the military escape route for poor, rural americans because it's easier to rely on food stamps and disability payments most wrenching of all are the parents who think it's best if a child stays illiterate because then they receive a disability check each month. there's no doubt that some families with seriously disabled children receive a lifeline from ssi but the bottom line is that we shouldn't try to fight poverty with a program that sometimes perpetuates it. >> there are some who actually do attempt to push forward this

message in an intelligent way, but you take pete wehner who worked on the romney campaign. i haven't spoken with him, but i've gotten press reports that he helped write romney's speech which i was very excited, a pet wehner convention speech, and he threw it all away. these type of people who have the ability to make what bruce called the compassionate conservative argument, they're thrown to the side because they don't sound enough like glenn beck or a blogger. >> well, is there enough breathing room for a legitimate argument that nick kristoph to breathe in this culture of ours? i don't know that there is because of the loudness and shrillness of voices on both sides. >> what do you do in schoolyard bullying? you punch them in the face. you think on talk radio if

they're punching them in the face by the republican nominee, no, they're cowards. they're bullies. punch them in the face and they back off. bullies do that. mitt romney, and we've said it nonstop, for two years, he would never stand up to these bullies. and so they framed his campaign, and he got his tail whipped. >> how many sista soulja moments did he have? >> thousands. and we started saying this, mika, in 2010 when glenn beck said the president was a racist who hates all white people. we said, this is your sister soulja moment. >> we wanted to see more of him many, many times, and he did nothing. he did nothing in terms of showing a real moral conviction, a sense of what is right and what is wrong, what makes sense and what doesn't make sense? he couldn't do it. he was always thinking about what would happen if i did that?

that's why he lost. >> it's worth pointing out that the most prominent voices in conservative radio came out and trashed bill kristol after he came out of that quote. >> that's fine. i think bill kristol will survive. >> he immediately said he's waving the white flag of surrender, he's been a liberal his whole life, et cetera, et cetera. but the question is -- >> wait, but willie, why don't we keep following their pathway to a permanent minority, right? >> right. >> who are they to say anything about what the future of this party and of this movement is? they're making tens of millions of dollars. >> and hurting this country. >> they're getting rich, and they're not really hurting this country. >> i think they are. >> because they're irrelevant. they can't even nominate somebody in the republican party. but they are destroying the republican party every day. >> but is their argument and their philosophy just the loudest, or is it the most prevalent? i mean, rush limbaugh has 20 million listeners. that's not nothing. so there are a lot of people who follow what he says and believe

whattes. what he says. >> there has to be a republican bill clinton that unfolded from '85 to '92. in this era, it has to be quicker. when you think about it, i think that's an analogous moment worth thinking about. >> what about a republican george w. bush? i've been hyper critical of him on debt, spending, on iraq, on many things. but you know what? george w. bush knew how to knock those people back in line. he did. >> he did. >> bush was tough enough that, you know, my good friend trent lott said something really stupid about strom thurmond. they immediately said, you're no longer majority leader. they didn't say it with their words. they said it with their actions. they kept people in line. you know, even when trent, even when they knew trent made a mistake and he was sorry for it and it didn't reflect his years and years of great public service, they're, like, you know

what? this doesn't help the party, mike. we're going to have to move frist in there. >> off of kristoph's point yesterday, he could make that argument, he could state reality. nobody wants to be born poor in this country, but there is a life cycle of dependency that has been built into programs like ssi as they have expanded beyond the realm of what anybody thought when they were first conceived. >> yeah. >> he could make that argument. coming up, "the washington post's" david ignatius, from ohio, sherrod brown joins us on set. former white house budget director peter orszag and rana foroohar. and mike allen with the "politico playbook." first, bill karins with the forecast. merry christmas. >> merry christmas. >> happy hanukkah. >> that probably will be the only gift. good morning.

if you're in dallas-ft. worth, take your kids and look outside. it is snowing. doesn't happen all that often. a little band of snow right over the top of ft. worth, will shortly be over dallas. could drop a quarter to a half inch of snow. temperatures right around freezing. it could be a little slippery. i know you don't drive on snow that often. it is brutally cold. it snowed hard in minneapolis over the weekend. ten inches of snow. windchills in the single digits and zeros all the way down to texas this morning. now, the east coast, you are nice and warm. you don't even need the jacket today. if anything, maybe the raincoat as we will watch that front coming through. look how warm it's going to be. could even see thunderstorms today, atlanta down to new orleans. and in new england, we are watching a little bit of snow in maine this morning, but everybody else is plenty warm enough, but the roads will not be an issue. there will be a period of rain as the front comes through. by tonight, it will begin to head out. tomorrow, you'll be dry but much colder with temperatures dropping into the 40s in the big cities and only 30s for areas

out towards buffalo and pittsburgh. this big storm system that caused problems over the weekend will be leaving us today. for the east coast, your weather changes tomorrow. you're watching "morning joe," everyone. we're brewed, of course, by starbucks. of washington about the future of medicare and social security. anncr: but you deserve straight talk about the options on the... table and what they mean for you and your family. ancr: aarp is cutting through all the political spin. because for our 37 million members, only one word counts. get the facts at earnedasay.org. let's keep medicare... and social security strong for generations to come.

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wow! 25 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." time now to take a look at the "morning papers." "the wall street journal." the political future of venezuela is uncertain after president hugo chavez announced his cancer has returned, suggesting it could be terminal. he's gone through multiple rounds of treatments since 2011 and is expected to go to cuba for an emergency procedure. >> wow! >> he has announced his current

vice president, nicholas majero, as his successor. >> if that's the answer to your medical problem -- >> going to cuba. >> -- oh, my lord. >> single-payer advocates on a roll today. "the boston globe," china's largest auto manufacturer has the winning bid for a a123, a brumt battery maker based in the u.s. the company received $133 million in federal stimulus grngrnt grants before going under. republicans called the case a textbook example of wasted stimulus money. "usa today," controversy surrounding the korean pop sensation psy. he performed last night at the christmas in washington concert with the president and his family in attendance. he has that dance, you know? >> you know, everybody, like, sends me videos of them doing this. i have no idea what it is. >> "gangnam style." >> is that how you say it? >> yeah. >> oh, you know what?

i prefer to be out of it on this one. >> so this was just days after video surfaced of him using inflammatory anti-american language and leading anti-u.s. protests at a concert in 2004 amid the heat of the iraq war. the song, which is a cover called for killing, quote, yankees. on friday psy issued an apology saying he understands american servicemen's sacrifices and regrets using the inflammatory language. >> it was really harsh language that he used, but you know what? a lot of people said a lot of stupid things again. i would be more concerned but for the fact -- willie, i guess he issued an apology, and it was it was about as heartfelt it could be, said it was stupid. i don't know who this guy is, don't know what the dance is, but if there's not an eight-year statute of limitations on saying stupid things, i might as well

dig a hole in the backyard and bury myself in it and never come out. >> i tend to agree, the language was very harsh, talking about killing u.s. servicemen and their families. >> saying how stupid he was. what do you think? >> the song, for those who don't know, it's the most viewed video in the history of youtube. it's got, like, 920 million views. he's become a sensation. the funny thing is, he went to school in boston. he came to the berkeley school of music, went to b.u., lived in the united states for a long time. i don't know if it was -- it would have been pretty easy maybe just to take a pass and not come to the white house. >> i think they invited them and then found out about it. >> they found out later. a lot of people said he should have been asked not to perform inside the white house. >> yeah, i can understand that. i would defer to the servicemen and women who, again, he's apologized to. >> right. >> if groups came out saying don't do it, mr. president, then i would defer to them, but i

didn't hear that. i don't know. i don't know. time for "politico." >> the guy who we will never ban, regardless of the horrible, horrible things he said about all of our families years ago. >> no. >> have you read his quotes from 2004 lately? >> oh, oh. we can't repeat them here. >> what he said about my children? >> my little girls. >> little girls. >> it was in the mike allen "playboy" interview. >> it was. it was. >> i could not believe it. i'm still hurting. >> to say those things. >> mike allen, resident superstar, chief white house correspondent for "politico" with a look on the the "playbook." >> happy monday. >> happy monday. let's talk 2016 because so many people were talking about it over the weekend. particularly about hillary clinton. >> who was talking about 2016 over the weekend? i was not. >> i'll tell you who it was. it was a "new york times" article, willie. >> very interesting. >> a great "new york times" article. and former speaker of the house

newt gingrich on "meet the press" yesterday. >> she's very formidable as a person and is a very competent person. she was married to the most popular democrat in the country. they both think it would be good for her to be president. that makes it virtually impossible to stop her for the nomination, i think. i thought she was frankly going to be the nominee in '08. every republican should be focused on what we just talked about. i mean, if their competitor in '16 is going to be hillary clinton, supported by bill clinton and presumably a still relatively popular president, barack obama, trying to win that will be truly the super bowl. and the republican party today is incapable of competing at that level. >> wow, how about that? newt gingrich says the republican party is incapable of defeating hillary clinton. >> it's a little early. >> it's a little early. he says right now the party is incapable. spl >> we've got four years. >> take us through your 2016 favorables. this is a new poll you guys have

out. >> what speaker gingrich said there reflects what you're hearing a lot of republicans say in washington. they don't use quite the fatalistic terms that the speaker did, quite newtonian terms, but there's a widespread view among republicans that even though this should be their year, you have a 50/50 country and one party's had the white house twice in a row, you would think they'd be due, but they believe that secretary clinton would be a prohibitive favorite to get the nomination and then a prohibitive favorite to beat the republican partly because they have such a long bench. there could be 20 people running for it. now, in that "politico"/george washington university battleground poll, great news for secretary clinton. 60% favorability. that's higher than the president, her boss. the president's at 52%. much better known than any of the republicans who might be running against her. marco rubio, the senator from florida, just one-third of people say he's favorable about him. that's mainly because so many

people don't know him. jeb bush still has a little tarnish on the family name. a little better at 39%. both paul ryan and mitt romney check in with an approval rating of, believe it or not, 47%. >> how about that? >> ouch. >> december the 10th. 2012. >> 2012. >> in 2016. mike allen, thanks so much. >> thank you, mike. >> never too early. have a great week. >> actually, if i can just correct him, willie, i think it's a little early. >> it's way too early. >> i think we need to get out of the calendar year. let's get through advent. >> opening day. >> opening day. >> put another way. >> how about opening day 2015. >> i'll go for that. >> i love -- go back and look at polls two years before any election. go back and look at the 1978 democratic poll which i always like to do, willie. it's one of my favorites. ted kennedy was going to beat jimmy carter by 20 points in the

primary and was going to be, what, howard baker or somebody. ronald reagan was just a glint in right-wing californians' eyes in '78. and ted kennedy was going to be the president. >> absolutely. >> everybody knew it. everybody knew it. >> and by the way, five years ago, hillary/giuliani was a lock. >> it was a lock. if i can just say, that's how "morning joe" started its first six months, by declaring that a lock. >> that was so long ago. just like psy. >> psy, please. coming up, a great game in washington yesterday. football the way it was meant to be. redskins/ravens. rg3 goes down with an injury and another rookie quarterback comes in to save the day. mike florio joins us next. [ female announcer ] imagine skin so healthy, it never gets dry again.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 6:36 in the morning. joining us now for the "morning joe gridiron grind," nbc sports' mike florio, the founder of profootba profootballtalk.com. just great football weather. >> people getting their knees knocked out. it was great. >> there was that element. >> helmets knocked off. >> the ravens/redskins game. what a game. rg3 goes down with the injury, and another rookie comes in to save him. >> people thought the redskins were crazy when they drafted kirk cousins from michigan state. after everything they gave up to

get rg3. he had that wicked knee injury. that's not good. he came back and played for a while. then he left. cousins comes in and gets it done. ties the game up with a touchdown. and then he ran in the two-point version on a quarterback draw. redskins won it in overtime. huge win for wish wish. now they're 7-6. >> willie, let's talk about, though, the backup rookie quarterback and what he did to win the game. >> unbelievable. drives them down the field. was that a designed draw, do you think? >> it was. it was a designed draw. he improvised on the touchdown pass, but the run, it was planned the whole way. he did it, he got it done and redskins win. >> what do we know about rg3 going forward? have we heard more about his injury? >> he had an mri to look at that knee. no significant ligament damage. i was told whether he can play sunday at cleveland, still up in the air. he could miss a game, but it's not a serious knee injury. >> he could miss cleveland. >> won three in a row now. >> cleveland pretty good yesterday. >> biggest win since 2003.

>> and trent richardson having a great rookie season. >> did he see trent yesterday? he dives two yards in and there's a lineman standing there waiting for him. the lineman gets knocked over and he just stands up. >> he's a beast. >> he's unbelievable. >> we'll get to it after the clip. something might upset you about cleveland. >> that was a huge win for the redskins because this division now is so tight. the giants come out -- we were just talking about this -- against the saints. their special teams coach may have to be relieved of his duties this morning. >> there's talk of eliminating the kickoff in the nfl. i think the saints would vote in favor of that today. 227 kick return yards. he fumbles week one, goes into the doghouse. he had 100 yards rushing, 3 touchdowns and a great back flip. >> and the giants needed this win desperately. they've got a couple tough road games coming up, baltimore and atlanta. now, the cowboys, obviously, had a difficult weekend. the car accident that took the life of one of their guys on their team. you see some of the emotion before the game here.

they do come back and win the game, though. >> yeah. it was a big win for the cowboys. and issues now regarding how the nfl's going to deal with the problem of drunk driving, what do you do? this is the first time that you've had a player and another player both members of the nflpa involved in an incident like this. and a lot of talk and debate in future days and weeks about how to fix this because a lot of nfl players get arrested for dui, and they all have a phone number available to them where they can call and get a ride home. >> i was just going to ask you, there is a service they can get, they don't have to drive their cars home. >> we don't know how many use it, but we see how many don't because it seems like once a month or more frequently somebody's getting arrested. >> jerry brown was the player who lost his life. nfc east standings, giants needed that win. it keeps them a game ahead of the skins and cowboys. meanwhile last night on sunday night, that was football weather. that was a football game at lambeau. >> i only wish some of the snow would have stuck.

>> they got those heaters. >> it's heated. it was 60 degrees before the game under the hood. and the packers just methodically came back. and the lions haven't won in lambeau field -- >> '92. >> yeah. since early, early favre days. >> where do the packers fit into this nfc picture, then? are they coming on strong here late? >> they're coming on strong. the giants, you have to deal with them. the seahawks, i'll tell you what, i wouldn't want to play them. they're much better at home than the road, but i think last week after they won at soldier field, they got some confidence. and they just -- i mean, the cardinals, 58-0, how do you not fire everybody the day after that? >> talk about another rookie quarterback, this kid wilson. >> russell wilson. >> he is great. >> more and more confident every week. >> at the risk of upsetting joe scarborough, could you break the rumored possibility -- >> there is talk that a certain very successful college football coach may be eyeing a return to the national football league. >> yeah, nick saban. if saban wins this year, he's won 3 out of 4 national

championships, nobody's done that since the irish back in the '40s. so two ways to look at it. one way is what else can you do at alabama? you've won 3 out of 4 national championships. there's another way to look at it, though. do you want to be a two-time failure in the nfl -- and i'm dead serious here -- going to be a two-time failure and basically have everything you've accomplished at alabama wiped off the map because the end will be -- steve spurrier still hasn't recovered from his stint in washington. the guy was a football god. he went to washington and immediately the stories started, you know, that this guy was bush league. he was a college coach. if saban goes up and fails a second time -- and god bless him, he's done enough for alabama, he deserves that right, or do you want to be remembered the greatest college football coach of all time? he sticks around another ten years, wins more champion sshi

people consider this guy the john wooden of college football. >> when you look at what they've done p college coaches, that could be the lure, but he was miserable when he was at miami. in his second year with the dolphins, he was looking for opportunities back at the college game. i think it would take a lot to get him back to the nfl. when you look at all the teams that will need coaches -- >> but why go? >> well, money. a lot of money. a whole lot of money. >> in the words of dire straits, he's got a daytime job. he's doing all right. but again, seriously. you've got the chance to be the very best in the 120-year history of college football, why do you risk that losing again? again, if he does it, god bless him. he's given us enough. >> i tend to think he'll stay, but you put enough money in front of him, who knows what's going to happen. >> very quickly, houston/new england, who wins tonight? >> probably the patriots, but the texans are looking really good.

if they get home, playoff teams will be tough to beat. >> thanks so much. david ignatius joins us for his must-read op-ed. >> willie, he had a remarkable must-read op-ed on friday about egypt and everything that's happened since then. i'd like one of those desserts and some coffee.

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right after mississippi. you mean alabama. say louisiana or there's no dessert. this invitation is brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home. ♪ i think it's time for a change ♪ ♪ you may get disgusted welcome back to "morning joe" at 47 past the hour. time now for the "must-read opinion page." joining us now from washington is "washington post" associate editor and columnist david ignatius. david's friday piece was on our man in cairo, and he wrote in part, this. "how did washington become the best friend of the muslim brotherhood in egypt, even as president mohamed morsi was asserting dictatorial powers and his followers were beating up secular liberals in the streets of cairo? when assessing the turbulent events in the arab world, we

should remind ourselves that we're witnessing a revolution that may take decades to produce a stable outcome, with the outcome so hard to predict, it's a mistake to make big bets on any particular player. america will help the arab world through this turmoil if it states clearly that u.s. policy is guided by its interests and values, not by transient alliances and friendships. if morsi wants to be treated as a democratic leader, he will have to act like one." and david, i guess we can begin with that question. will he ultimately? can he? and are these fluctuations expected? >> morsi did something that's, in hindsight, a very stupid move. on november 22nd, he announced that he was no longer subject to review by the egyptian courts. and this was read, i think, properly as an attempt to get near dictatorial powers as egypt headed toward approval of a new

constitution which has been written in great haste by morsi's followers in the muslim brotherhood and others. that coincided with something that the u.s. was so happy about, namely morsi's help in brokering a cease-fire in the gaza war, morsi working with hamas even as the u.s. worked with israel to make that cease-fire work that i think we were led further down this road of embracing morsi as somebody who could be helpful as a symbol of the revolution that's not contrary to u.s. interests. and we forgot about the basic question of internal politics, which is are egyptians comfortable with this man seizing more and more power? and it turned out they weren't. and by thousands, they turned out on the streets to protest. and we're now in this awkward position of having seen by many egyptians to support this man

who made assertions, the powers of somebody like their previous leader, hosni mubarak, as a dictator. >> so david, the question is -- and answer your own question -- how did washington become the best friend of the muslim brotherhood in egypt? >> i think the obama administration, from the beginning, joe, has been making what i call a cosmic bet that islamists, people in parties like the muslim brotherhood, if they experience governing, if they get elected and are responsible for the growth of the economy, the welfare of the people, will bend and will become more responsible parties and then we'll have a peculiros where egypt looks more like turkey. >> but david, that's obviously not the case. what's the difference between supporting a dictator in egypt named morsi versus supporting a dictator in egypt named mubarak? >> well, you got it.

there isn't much difference. i would say that morsi has been elected by the egyptian people in what most observers think were democratic elections, and more to the point, morsi is a product of a revolution that caught up all egyptians. this has been a couple years of real change there. so morsi carries the hopes of those people. it's just that he's -- you know, it's gone to his head. he's on a power trip, i think, and it's time for the tous just s u.s. to just say that flat out. >> jon meacham. >> in the region is there an analogous example in the last 10, 15 years that should be helping guide policymakers here? >> if by that, jon, you mean is there somebody who's been a success -- >> yeah. >> -- in making the tris, the honest answer is it's very hard to find such a person. the figure who's most often looked at as a model by this white house is the prime minister of turkey, prime

minister erdogan, who has led a fantastic economic revival. the problem with choosing that example is that under erdogan, turkey has become a less free place. journalists and others have less freedom to criticize the government than they did, the judiciary is less independent than it was. the army is under tighter control. you know, turkey is a mixed model. there are people who say the new iraq is a model. i'm not one of them. i think prime minister maliki who owes his job to all those american troops who came in and swept out saddam hussein, i think he's been as much a dictator as a democrat as well. >> so david, what, if any, options do we have? >> well, i think the core option for the united states should always be to state clearly what are values and interests tell us about particular places?

in egypt, we support the democratic revolution that brought morsi to power. we stood behind the egyptian people as he won majority of votes. and that was appropriate. we stand behind the egyptian people trying to help them get their economy going. we have all kinds of programs now to fund new businesses in egypt, to help them with imf loans. those are all good. what we shouldn't do is sign on to individuals and their particular political claims because, you know, they may, as has been the case with morsi, walked themselves into a real confrontation with the public. we have no business embracing that. more to the point, this history's going to be written by the egyptians and other arabs. it has to be their story. we should get out of our heads the idea that we're responsible or that we even can determine the outcome of these events. we can't. it's their story. let them write it. >> david ignatius, thank you very much. stay with us if you can.

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coming up, former white house budget director, peter orszag, joins us on set. what he thinks would be a fair deal for both sides in the fkz negotiati fiscal cliff. also, rana foroohar joins the table. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso.

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investing in things like education and research that are important to growing our economy, and if we're serious about protecting middle-class families, then we're also going to have to ask the wealthiest americans to pay higher tax rates. that's one principle i won't compromise on. >> we must get the national debt under control. tax increases will not solve our $16 trillion debt. only economic growth and a reform of entitlement programs will help control the debt. we must reform our complicated, uncertain job-killing tax code by getting rid of unjustifiable loopholes. but our goal should be to generate new revenue by creating new taxpayers, not new taxes. >> wow! we're just still in the same place, i guess. welcome back to "morning joe." >> i don't think we're in the same place. >> top of the hour. i think we might be. >> i think it's much worse. >> the fiscal cliff which the republicans voted for and the 2%. but we'll get there. best-selling author jon meacham is still with us. along with "the washington

post's" david ignatius in washington and former director of the office for budget, vice chairman of global banking at citibank and adjunct -- good lord, seriously. >> you've got more titles than mark mckinnon. we've got peter orzsag. >> from "time" rana faroohar is here. >> the frito-lay. >> so peter, we have a lot to talk about. first of all, explain what's going on. you see the two sides lobbying, these rhetorical missiles past these other while john boehner and president obama are calmly, quietly, privately speaking. what's going on? is that for the base? who is that far? >> well, yeah. first, look, if we had a deal on december 10th, both bases would say you're nuts, you gave too

much. it's not surprising that it hasn't come together. i think the big concern at this point is you can see a deal coming together on taxes. >> on taxes, right. >> some increase in marginal tax rates, not to 39.6%. some reduction in tax expenditures. the problem is it's not at all clear to me how the debt limit gets handled. people are forgetting about this other piece. we may have a deal over the fiscal cliff and then run into the debt limit in february. that would be a puriic victory. >> vus not goiit's just not goi happen. tell me, because you know these numbers better than anybody, other than people sitting in the white house that have looked at the very latest, but it seems like 37%. we're starting to hear that more, and both sides may coalesce around that eventually. let's say we change the rates to 35% and 37% and you eliminate deductions, not the home

mortgage because we're not going to get that. we're probably not going to get charitable. can you say $1.2 trillion if that's where we compromise and new revenues. >> capital gains, dividends, estate. >> if you're more aggressive. >> about half theway. >> let's say you aggressively go on capital gains, dif evidends >> you start to get close. >> david ig nanatiuignatius, ar to have a deal? you know washington. >> my guess is we are going to have a deal just because the stars have now been in alignment. i've been struck by the way president obama has taken lead of his own party and himself been the negotiator, put all the action in the white house and we're now down to intense negotiations with john boehner on the house side. it's like the israeli/palestinian issue. we all know the shape of the deal, it's just getting there by christmas or shortly after. and if i had to bet, i'd bet yeah, they will. >> jon meacham, i was critical of the president last week for

not getting engaged, for not having the one-on-one interviews. he has taken that step, as david said, he has taken control of this. he's in charge. that's presidential leadership, isn't it? and that's good news. >> it's the best way to do it. you know, he tried to lead from behind on a couple of things, did not work out as well, and i think that it's his mandate. it's his election victory. we all know in our own lives that presidential attention is enormously effective. i'm wondering whether you're hearing anything about how the republicans in the house are reacting at this point. >> well, i think what's really interesting is if the president does get a deal on taxes, and if we get over the fiscal cliff, i think that that's actually going to create probably some kind of war in the republican party. >> you mean over by avoiding? >> yeah, over by avoiding, exactly. >> it's a tricky metaphor. >> it is. exactly. >> like the roadrunner. >> but i think going to peter's point, i think that this debt

ceiling issue will become the issue, and i think republicans will probably harden over that in the house. and i think that's really problematic because it's this on again/off again crisis thing. it makes us seem like an emerging market economy here. >> are we greece? >> our politics are becoming as dysfunctional as greece. i mean, we're not greece, but if you look at what businessmen say about why they're not investing in the u.s., they will often give dysfunctional politics in washington as the top answer. it's not even tax rates that people are concerned about. it's just getting a deal, getting people aligned. >> we're going to roll some tape, but i just wanted to ask you quickly, last week your sort of advice to republicans was don't cave, compromise. >> right. >> so this week, given what we've seen so far, we see these one-on-one negotiations taking place, what do you think the best strategy on the part of the republicans is? >> don't cave. compromise. you're not going to get 35%. you're just not going to. you're not going to.

the economy will go up in flames. you're just not going to get 35%. the president needs to understand he's not going to get 39.6%. if i were sitting in the house and the president asked me to go four, five percentage points up on tax rates right now, i wouldn't do it. i just wouldn't do it. so if it ends at 37% and you get a lot of entitlement reform, then that makes sense. peter, that, though, is -- let's say you're talking to me. we're both, obviously, out of it right now. but let's say you come to me and you go, joe, you've got to compromise on revenue. i say peter, i'll compromise on revenue, but you have to guarantee me -- guarantee me right now, if i vote and support the first tax increase in my lifetime that you guys are going to come forward with real entitlement reform, how do you guarantee me that you're not going to kick the can down the road again on medicare and medicaid for another four years? how can you -- because we're not going to get that deal by the

end of the year. but i know you need the revenue. >> you could do a bunch -- on social security, for example, actually, i don't think there's any reason you couldn't do it all at once. >> right. >> there the proposals have been delineated, laid out. >> but social security's not the big issue. >> i agree. >> over 20 years. >> but in terms of up-front credibility, if you wanted to, you could do that. and beyond that, it gets very difficult to set up a process that will guarantee a result. i mean, we've been through this. if you want to see whether the up-front deal, whatever it turns out to be, is lacking in credibility, the more that's kicked to a second-stage process with, you know, promise -- details, tbd, the less credibility it is. >> because we've seen that before. >> there's no way of guaranteeing. >> can you enact a tax rate that expires at the end of one year and you give the president a year to come forward with entitlements? because i'll tell you, i would

not under any circumstances support an increase in revenue if democrats can't guarantee they're going to be responsible in entitlements. >> i think the best approach is to try to do as much up front as possible and then there will inevitably have to be a second stage, but try to minimum his how much you're kicking. >> fair enough in terms what they're asking for in terms of taxes, tax cuts, what should be given in return? something. some significant long-term solution-type cutting to entitlements, correct? yes? >> there are multiple things you can do. the starting point is what has already been under discussion. >> i'm just talking about public negotiations, and you've got two parties at each other's throats. you've had a tough election. it's all about trying to work it out, right? and publicly, if they cave or compromise on taxes, shouldn't they get something in return for that? something significant. not just talk. >> again, coming back to if you're going to get the debt limit increased for more than

two months, i think you'll have to do that. the answer to that is yes. then the question is how are you positioning yourself? when are you putting forward the proposals? it's part of a negotiation. you know, that's part of public posturing. >> joe, going back to your hypothetical, you're sitting in the house. you're willing to go up a couple of points. what's your messaging when you go back home the first time? when they say, you raised our taxes -- >> you can't always get what you want. but if you try sometime, you might just get what you need. and i would say that. and then i would say -- >> mick jagger. >> -- i am not -- and i could go back and say, i voted against taxes year after year after year. i've opposed it. and the only way that i could do this is if i knew that we were going to save medicare by reforming it, that we were going to save social security, that we were going to do a lot of things -- and most importantly, save the economy and talk about what would happen if a deal was

dead. and sure, would there be people on the far right that would come after me? yeah. would i be primaried? yeah. and would i reduce them to a miserable pile of goo by the end of the primary process? yes, i would because, you know what? republicans understand. republicans understand that sometimes taxes have to be raised. but, again, they're not willing to do that if the democrats and republicans don't come forward with real spending cuts. and that's never happened in my lifetime. so why do i believe now, peter, i go back to the question -- >> i think it's the same question. >> -- because i will not raise taxes just so politicians can be reckless with spending for another four years. i won't do it. >> here's the deal. if you're holding out the promise of solving medicare, i'm very worried there isn't a set of policies out there that can do that. so that's why one motivation may be to focus a little bit more,

even though it's not the big fiscal problem on social security -- >> you're just not going to. >> you're not going to get a full medicare solution because one doesn't exist. >> that's what the problem is. >> and there's a lot we could do, but don't hold out the false promise of a full solution s. >> hur talking about social security and republicans are going to talk about discretionary spending, cuts in infrastructure, cuts in r&d. >> they're going to argue about cuts for ten years. >> there's a lot we could do on medicare. >> and that doesn't work. >> we are moving away from fee-for-service payment. you can move much more aggressively. you could do a medical malpractice reform in a way that democrats should favor where you have a safe harbor for following best practices. that would be a good thing. there are a whole -- you can change the way co-payments work for beneficiaries. there's a whole series of things you could do. they just don't get you all the way there. >> yeah. >> when you go in there with all

those ideas, what happens? because nothing ever happens. which is what we're talking about here. seriously. >> peter had a great idea 2 1/2 years ago that was ignored by everybody. >> as most of my ideas are. >> but you have a long intro. >> the idea -- >> many different titles. >> david ignatius, we're going to go to zero dark 30 in one minute baz we really want to talk to you about that remarkable film and an op-ed by frank bruni yesterday. 2 1/2 years ago, and i know you remember this, as do i, peter leaves the white house and writes an op-ed. agree to extend the bush tax cuts for two more years for everybody, and then after two years, sunset it for everybody. and if you do that, you take care of a lot of the revenue problems. not only did the white house and the congressional republicans ignore, peter, they decided to do a deal that added another 1 trillion, $1.5 ptrillion to the

national debt. >> this is the problem with writing op-ed pieces, that people don't do what you tell them to do. >> not that you've ever been there. >> i think part of the problem is that the economy is still very weak. and so there is a general understanding that taking a lot more tax revenue out of the economy, letting these things completely sunset, as peter suggested, with the economy still so fragile, it is more of a hit that we can take. so the notion is, let's go after the highest incomers in part to avoid the fiscal damage of that. you know, listening to our discussion, i feel even more that the elements of a deal are so apparent to everyone that this time it actually -- we actually might get across the goal line. >> boy, let's hope so. >> all right. david, before you go, we want to talk about another topic. and i'm actually going to read from frank bruni's article in "the new york times times" yest.

"zero dark thirt" is about finding a needle in a uniquely messy and menacing haystack, enhanced interrogation techniques like waterboarding are presented as crucial to that search, and it's hard not to focus on them, because the first extended sequence in the movie shows a detainee being strung up by his wrists, sexually humiliated, deprived of sleep, made to feel as if he's drowning and shoved into a box smaller than a coffin. to some extent, "zero dark thirt thirty" will function as a rorschach test different viewers seeing what they want to see. but the torture sequence immediately follows a bone-chilling auto-only prologue of the voices of terrified americans trapped in the towering inferno of the world trade center. it is set up as payback. wow! >> so david ignatius, "zero dark thirty" that may win best

picture. it's a remarkable film. it presents a narrative that is going to make a lot of people in the mainstream media, in the democratic party and in the administration uncomfortable, and that is the truth that barack obama learned the first briefing that he got after he was -- after he won the election, and that is that the cia program, whether you find it repugnant or not, actually was effective with ksm and other people getting actionable intelligence that led to couriers that led eventually years later to the killing of osama bin laden. >> joe and mika, i saw a screening of the film on friday, and then i had breakfast on saturday with the screenwriter. it is powerful precisely because it just walks you through the story of what happened. and you can make all of the moral and political arguments that you want about what our policy on torture should be.

this just tells you the story of what happened. there's no question in the record that the film shows and in other research that i've done that the name of the courier who led us to bin laden's hideout in abbottabad emerged in these harsh interrogations. and there's a weird way in watching this film in which every viewer will feel complicit in that process in a weird way. you're watching, hoping that they get the name, hoping that somehow you get enough information for the united states to act. it's a really powerful movie. i think there will be discussioned, you know, in every living room, around every water cooler about some of the issues that it raises. >> jon meacham, i've had to listen to people on this show for years tell me, well, the cia program didn't work. >> right. >> waterboarding didn't work. and i knew that was just not

true. it did get information, khalid shaikh mohammed and other terrorists that eventually led to not just the killing of osama bin laden but a lot of victories. and you could say it's immoral. you could say it's wrong. just like you could say lincoln buying off congressmen with patronage jobs, suspending habeas corpus, doing a lot of awful things to end slavery and win the war was also actions that would make us uncomfortable in the finest dining rooms in georgetown and on the upper east side. >> this is going to be a big christmas season for dorks because we had -- >> jon, may i say, every christmas season is a big christmas season for you. >> because, to be quite seriously, actually, you have two very big movies that are making a similar point. which is the movie about "zero

dark thirty," and "lincoln," give me one jefferson quote, if you will, that what is practical most control what is pure theory, and that is the art of politics. it would be lovely if there could be philosophical consistency and absolute philosophical purity. guess what? history is not about philosophical purity. it's about deals. it's about tradeoffs. it's about not always following the strict line of the law. and we can argue about it all we want, but national survival has sometimes required extraordinary measures. >> so is that an excuse, rana? >> i was going to say, i do think it has to be said that there is a difference between lincoln's horse trading for higher purposes and waterboarding. >> hold on a second. i would say more americans were impacted by the suspension of habeas corpus than three terrorists being waterboarded. that's just -- i mean, on balance. i would also say more people -- and there is a story in the bbc

yesterday about a little girl who saw her grandmother killed by an indiscriminate drone strike. i would say indiscriminate drone strikes that kill civilians a little rougher than waterboarding three terrorists. >> drone strikes are a whole different topic, and i'd certainly agree with you on that one. >> go ahead. >> i take your point, and i do think you're in murky territory. i'm disturbed by anything that makes torture look like payback. i just think that that's problematic for me. >> even though it's true? >> yeah. even if it's true. i just think that, you know, torture is, to my mind, the human rights crisis of our time. you know, i think no matter who's doing it, it's problematic. >> so payback, when you use that word, and i don't mean to get into a long discussion here, god knows mika and i have over the past five years.

do you think the interrogators were waterboarding khalid shaikh mohammed because they wanted justice for the 9/11 killings, or do you think they were waterboarding khalid shaikh mohammed because they saw him as the most valuable asset they would ever get, and they had a program to get information that they believed would get the names of couriers, that they believed would get them to osama bin laden? >> you know, joe, i don't know the answer to that, and i haven't seen this movie, but i do think that torture, again, is the human rights crisis of our time, and i just think no matter who's doing it, whether it's happening in the middle east, whether it's happening on american soil, no matter where it's happening, it's problematic. >> can you define really quickly, what did we do that is torture? i'd take it you'd say waterboarding. >> i would say waterboarding. >> sleep deprivation? >> it's murky territory. the fact that we're having this debate on what is torture and we're going into the details of

this, it's worrisome to me. >> it's worrisome to me that we have seen what torture is redefined over the past several years, that the very things you do to american soldiers in basic training are now described as torture. waterboarding? yeah, let's have that debate. but suddenly over the past several years, sleep deprivation has become torture. making somebody uncomfortable because it's too hot or cold has become torture. making them watch "morning joe" three hours a day. do you understand, torture has been redefined by the press over the past several years. so just to say that we, quote, engaged in torture, i think is inexact. this is an argument and a debate that we've all had. i'm certainly not focusing on you. i'm just saying, we have generalized this term to suddenly make things that we do to our soldiers every day qualify as torture. >> i'm going to come clean and say that i've never watched this program all three hours straight through. i can't comment that.

>> you may still be on the watch list, then. >> david ignatius -- >> david, can we give you the final word even though we're about 18 minutes later? >> this movie, if people see it, will make you uncomfortable because you'll watch entirely believable cia officers, for once in a movie, you don't usually see that, people who look like you or me, joe or mika, and having to make these decisions and do these things, and that's why i think it's so powerful. it's not dick cheney, you know, sort of figure of universal hatred, it's somebody who looks like you or me having to deal with this. >> i like dick cheney, for the record. it is a good point. mika, the horns have been drawn on the men and women who, after september 11th, 2001, were asked to go out and save americans from another terror attack. >> i agree. >> and maybe this film begins to erase those horns and make them

realize that they are americans who love their family who are patriotic, who wanted to do what men and women who signed up to go off to afghanistan and iraq wanted to do after september 11th. they have been done a grave disservice by this country that needed them after september 11th and let us hope that this film at least starts to put this situation into more perspective. still be against what they did. but at least understand what they did. >> there have been moments, whether it's lincoln in habeas corpus, there have been moments by common consensus our greatest presidents have done things that have been wrong, but they have also taken extraordinary powers to do things that have been right. >> part of the story, though, that we need to hear is the one that you talk about. david ignatius, thank you so much. peterorszag and rana as well.

>> we'll have you back. not talking about this. exactly. bring a longer title next time. >> peter orszag of the empire. democratic senator sherrod brown of ohio joins us next. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ [ male announcer ] we began serving handcrafted coffees in seattle, and people seemed to like it. so we wondered -- where else could we take this? ♪ for over 40 years, we've brought our passion for fine coffee and espresso to people everywhere. but one place was impossible, until now. our lattes, espresso and brewed coffee, now in your home from a machine like no other. and now $50 off through january 1st.

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if we were to pass, for instance, raising the top two rates and that's it, all of a sudden, we do have the leverage of the debt celling, and we haven't given that up. so the only way the debt ceiling, i think, is given up is if the president comes to the table, talks with speaker boehner about real entitlement reform. >> 29 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." here with us now, democratic senator from ohio, senator sherrod brown. good to have you. >> good to be back. >> and connie who's here, too, his wife. so first of all, are we close? are you optimistic? is it going to happen? everything's going to be fine, right? >> those are all different questions. we're not close.

i think that -- i mean, you're beginning to see more republicans say, okay, the president won the election. democrats picked up senate seats, house seats. he gets his way, to a point. >> yeah. >> and that is on something that we all campaigned on. i was on the ballot this year. a lot of money spent me in my race. i won, partly talking about let's bring tax rates for upper income people up, just ask them to pay a little more to pay what they were in the clinton years, a much more prosperous 1990s decade we've had since. and then the negotiations begin in seriousness. i think then we discuss what do you do with medicare? what do you do with defense spending? what do you do with nondefense spending? >> and something needs to be done with all three things that you just mentioned, correct? >> yes. >> something really significant, correct? >> but it doesn't mean take medicare, it doesn't mean raising the medicare age. >> why not? >> because i'll tell you, i was in yun in youngstown a year or so ago. a woman who had no insurance

said to me, she said -- she was 63 years old -- she just said i just need to live a year and a half more so i can get on medicare and get health insurance. >> right. so maybe the age doesn't raise for her, but what about for others? why can't you guys come up with a framework that works now? >> means testing. there's this whole view that 70-year-olds -- >> we're not saying that. >> no, but somewhere it was social security at 70, 67, now you raise it another year. people that work in a diner, people that are on their feet all day long in retail or construction or manufacturing, you know, all of us can work till we're 70, perhaps, god willing. >> so means testing? >> maybe. that would be something there might be some agreement on, but this unilateral saying we're going to raise the retirement age for working americans. >> i feel there's a disconnect. i feel like, first of all, you've got a lot of republicans promulgating this concept that all small businesses will be hurt by the way the white house wants to -- >> which is not true. >> it's not true, but i also

feel like in return, there's this concept that republicans are looking like the boogie man that want to take medicare away from people when they want to make it solvent and last into the future, when they really want to make this country's fiscal irresponsibility at this point come together at some point and make sense. >> i don't agree with that second part. well, i've seen over the last 10, 15 years when newt gingrich had a chance or president bush had a chance, they wanted to shift costs onto beneficiaries because, in part, turning wall street over in part to turning social security in part over to wall street. i mean, there has been a move among conservative republicans of a bit of a distaste for medicare and social security. there are public programs that are successful. and if it's proven that these public programs that are successful, which it has been proven their success, it sort of undercuts their view that government can't do anything right. government's never been late on a social security check in 75 years since its creation and tss

first payment in 1940, 72 years ago. we have seen two very successful public programs, and there are always efforts to shift costs onto -- i don't buy this they're not sustainable any more than the defense budget is not sustainable. we owe billions of dollars down the line, of course. we can fix these things with changes at the margin without radical surgery. >> question in two parts. one, what do you see in terms of the deal, the fiscal cliff stuff, what do you see when you look at the house of representatives? and two, what, if anything, happens to the dialogue in the senate with jim demint's decision to leave? >> i don't think much changes with demint. there are demint wannabes in the senate. there's some newer members. we don't need to go into that. john boehner's got to make a decision. is he going to put a majority of members on an agreement, democrats and republicans together, or will he bring

nothing to the floor unless he has a majority of republicans? if it's the latter, it's going to be harder to get to a deal. he can take 150 democrats and 75 or 80 or 90 republicans and get a deal more quickly than he can take a majority of his caucus. and that's really his role in leadership, what's he going to do there. i heard you talking about the "lincoln" movie a while ago. that's the kind of leadership speaker boehner will need to show, and i think he eventually will. it's less a fiscal cliff than it is a slide or an incline plane or whatever. but i think that, you know, soon after the 1st, if we haven't done it by then when all the tax rates go and all the changes happen, we get serious and something happens, and i think speaker boehner will be part of it. that's why i'm generally optimistic within the next month if not within the next few weeks. >> i hope so. senator sherrod brown, thank you so much. nice to have you here, your wife as well. coming up next, david

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he was one of president george w. bush's closest advisers. dan bartlett will be here. also, actor dan lauria from the broadway musical "a christmas story." i saw "bring it on" yesterday with my daughters and some girls from harlem. >> how was it? >> they loved it. very inspiring for them. representative david shweikert is here next on "morning joe." hello.

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with his wife, danielle, almost every weekend. derrell hasn't been able to visit his mom back east in a long time. [ shirley ] things are sometimes a little tight around the house. i wasn't able to go to the wedding. [ emily jo ] since derrell couldn't get home, we decided to bring home to him and then just gave him a little bit of help finding his way. ♪ [ laughs ] [ applause ] i love you. i love you, too. it's a slap in the face of all young people who are out there thinking about being republicans, want to be part of this party, and are being told, well, if you disagree with leadership just a couple times, we're going to send you home. we're going to tell you you're off the committee.

you don't get to participate. i have to assume that leadership was worried about my independen independence, and they wanted me to be silenced. >> wow! okay, then. that was congressman justin ammash speaking at the heritage foundation after being removed from his seat on the house budget committee last week. amash says he was being punished by speaker boehner for voting against paul ryan's budget plan, a plan he says didn't go far enough to rein in spending. joining us now, republican representative from arizona, congressman david schweikert who believes he was ousted from the financial services committee for voting against the party leadership during the debt ceiling fight. >> so this happens, congressman. it certainly happened when i was there. you've heard the stories, right? >> oh. and you're legendary for some of the stories. >> well, i actually strapped on not rhetorical but actual explosives. >> that could explain some of the security issues even today.

>> yeah. >> look, i'm not happy, but this is also big boy politics. you know, there's always a friction between -- within even a party, between your conservatives and your moderates, even to your liberals. in this particular case, those of us on the conservative side took the hit. >> well, there were 11 of, among them matt salmon. >> oh, yeah. who is now coming back. >> a dear friend of mine coming back to congress. there were 11 of us constantly pushing gingrich and livingston and others to bring on more spending cuts. another was taken off the appropriations committee and we all signed a letter, said put him back on the committee or we're voting against every bill you put up. he came back on the committee. you have moderates lining up and telling republican leadership the same thing? >> in some ways this is an interesting personal ethical battle. you have a number of

conservative groups around the country that literally want into into battle. the problem is if you have the fiscal cliff, you know, these other major, major issues that are much more important to the survival of your country, do you sort of -- do you light it up for your own vanity? i loved being on the financial services committee. it's what my training is, my background. but it's an interesting question. do you go to war on that at the same time you have so many battles around you? >> why did they take you off? did you talk to anybody in leadership that told you because you weren't -- you were too conservative? >> and you also have to understand, it's more than just me and justin amash. if you take a look at many of the appointments, i believe there's a fairly large number of folks who are on the conservative side who did not either progress where they should have been. our friend, matt salmon, in many ways was his six years of seniority weren't respected. welcome to the politics of washington. >> yeah.

>> but as a conservative, you never give up the fight because sometimes you're on ascendency, sometimes descendency, but you always engage in the fight. >> help me out here. i'm trying to follow this. are you telling me or anyone that john boehner isn't conservative enough, or he's not a conservative, that he's a moderate and that's one of the reasons why you lost your slot? >> for many of us, it's even beyond how you and i would typically say this is a conservative, this isn't. i'm absolutely convinced that unless we do something fairly dramatic in rebuilding how we deliver medicare, many of these other entitlements, we're going to lose them. so if you want to save them, if you want to defend them, that is the battle i see happening. >> can i answer that question? i think john boehner is a good guy. i think he's a good leader. i think he's a statist, though. he was when i was there. he still is. that's not bad. that's how you become speaker, i think. but when guys are being punished

for voting against a budget, paul ryan's budget, that doesn't balance until 2040, i think that's a legitimate gripe. i think that's a legitimate complaint. >> well, look -- >> and by the way, where's paul ryan? has he come out to support you? >> i haven't even asked. >> why don't you? i would ask. you've got to learn from me. ask. get in his face and ask. hey, paul, i hear you're a conservative. do you think i should be punished just because i voted against your budget or just because i voted against raising the debt ceiling? >> and let's face it, we've had a bit of chaos that's been going on at the same time we're also doing our committee appointments and those. so you also get sort of caught up in all the other activity. there's no question that a number of conservative members have been sort of sent to the wood shed. but that's no reason to stop the fight. >> so this happens all the time. welcome to politics. your story and being kicked off.

but you're talking about it. you're here. what's the bigger point here? what's the bigger worry that you have? >> actually, in one of my mantras and even speaking to some of the conservative groups around the country saying, look, not happy. focus on what's important. if we're engaged in this dance over the fiscal cliff and all the rhetoric and all the discussions and i think in many ways misleading on the actual facts, focus on how do we save the country, and that requires changing the entitlement curve because it gets much, much worse. >> by the way, just for the record, mika, the congressman is here because i asked him to come here. he didn't send out a press release. i think this is important, not for you, but for peach watching y people watching. >> he didn't send out something saying -- wow, this happened when we were there, and it would be fascinating to bring him on for two reasons. first of all, because for anybody who believes, like me, that we spend way too much money somehow in this republican

congress is painted as a right-wing nut. he's not a right-wing nut. he's concerned like me there aren't enough spending cuts. secondly, he's not self-promoting. he's here because we asked him to be here. >> jon meacham. >> eric cantor, you mentioned the speaker is the majority leader with the speaker on this, or do you think there's daylight there? >> i don't know. i've had wonderful relationships with eric cantor, and i've found him to be truly one of the straight shooters i've dealt with. >> so would you prfr speaker prefer speaker cantor? >> you are being mischievous. >> i'd like to not be chairman of janitorial supplies. >> thank you, congressman. come back. we're back in just a moment. very nice to meet you. of washington about the future of medicare and social security.

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he's done it. the artful dodger displaces their bomber, a new goal king. histo history, rewrite the history books. we were all there to witness it. and be privileged by this artisan. >> let's bring in roger bennett.

so explain really quickly what happened. he's the king. >> the greatest player arguably to ever play, scored the most goals ever in a calendar year, 86, breaking a 1972 record. only pele still thinks he's the best player in the world. >> who is taller, messi or tom cruise? >> that's really -- his daughter is probably taller than all of them. >> so what was tom cruise doing at a man-u game? >> tom cruise is amongst them. he got the english premier league in the divorce settlement. powerhouse champions. slapstick team. rooney scores first, rolling the ball home at the pace of a geriatrics goal scorer. seemed to be in cruise control. they say 2-0. i don't know why they say it's

the hardest lead in soccer to defend. this was the equalizer. >> great shot. >> technically brilliant. a pile driver. wasn't over, though. three minutes into injury time, the new signee goes off the wall like michael jackson, delivers a killer blow. >> again, ugly after the game. >> it did get really -- like the 1980s. clipping the wall, going in. new signing. >> masri, keep your foot down next time. end of the game really quickly, they get pelted by coins, bloody face, guys rushing the field. joe hart has to tackle his own fan to keep them away -- >> 2012 behavior was shocking. lake a normal game in the 1980s. it was disgust to go see a game end like that. >> chelsea wins and torres. >> chelsea and rafa. they have been lake a slapstick

circus car. torres. >> by torres. >> $800 million. watching him recently has been like seeing a labrador that needs to be put down. >> tell me what's unique about this goal? do you know what's unique about that goal? >> the first he's ever taken -- >> one of the top scorers, that's the first penalty kick. >> maybe his confidence is scoring. watch him score again. 12 1/2 he's not scored. a black feather in his nose and learn how to fly. i can fly. i can fly. torres. >> everton, i know you don't like to talk about everton, it was the highlight of your young life. everton comes back and two goals in extra time to win. >> there they are. this is a game of money as you know, barnicle. everton having none of it. they are fourth in the league. commitment collectivity. one goal down until the 91st minute. i watched it with my two young children. it's how i want them to be, never give up, never stop

trying. it's the american way. >> you can say the same thing from the other school, 65 minutes in, they scored two goals. very happy. liverpool in. they are well on their way to being a mediocre team. >> guess what happened yesterday? well on their way -- they're only four points out of fourth place. what happened yesterday? i predicted it. how did they win? the joe cold revolution. i've been telling you it was coming. the revolution happened yesterday. >> america doesn't understand what we're talking about. you and i do, the revolution. it took two years but it finally came. . roger thank you so much. tim keller is here with the aenls. he's fantastic. stick around for that. [ male announcer ] where do you turn for legal matters?

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. time to wake up, be everybody, as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set we have mike barnicle and jon meacham. >> he's had the number one book in america -- >> it's number one. it's fantastic. >> it's a remarkable book. >> you'd better hurry to the store. >> firsthand experience on this.

people knock on his front door, and he sits by the fire in a cardigan sweater. and people knock on the door -- little schoolchildren with their schoolbooks tied up with a belt and they come up and they say, mr. meacham, will you sign the book for me, and they come in and he signs books by the fire. >> that is true. >> he's huge down there. >> thanks. you know why willie was there? >> why is that? >> he was being inducted, not into the overall vanderbilt hall of fame but the student media. >> what does that mean? >> it's a proud group. name gratlin rice mean anything to you? >> the bullet now -- >> i'm rice. >> i meant that as a compliment. people knock on the door just to get a moment -- >> i could tell you meant it as a compliment. i was asked last night, 92nd

street "y," they are still clapping from election night. >> wow, good. they're not upset about the alcohol problem? >> no, no. the last question i got was who on the morning show set reminds you most of thomas jefferson. a question i must admit i had not grappled. i started thinking, well, mike barnicle did -- >> oh, yeah. >> is john adams. >> he is. >> a little taller but just as grumpy. willie geist, hamilton 0 because, let's face it, most likely to be shot in jersey. >> that's true. >> scarborough, commanding, george washington. washington-esque. tall, dignity. >> the same, 6'4". >> so clearly it's mika brzezinski. >> i left -- clearly? >> renaissance woman. >> is it the alcohol? >> i think it's more actually. >> the what? >> nothing. i didn't say anything.

you missed that. >> i did. >> you are the jefferson. >> i am the art of power. >> you are. there you go. >> the art of navigating power. >> with that let's go to the most jeffersonian figure for the news. all right. we begin this morning with new urgency in the fiscal cliff negotiations with now just 21 days to reach a deal. that's three weeks. today president obama returns to campaign mode taking his fiscal cliff message to detroit. yesterday the president and speaker boehner met privately at the white house. their first face-to-face meeting since they agreed last week to clear everyone else out of the negotiating room. neither side revealed anything about the meeting. that was part of the agreement. only saying that the lines of communication remain open. but yesterday another influential republican, senator bob corker from the senate banking committee, said his party should consider the president's opinion on raising tax rates on the wealthy. >> there is a growing group of

folks that are looking at this and realizing that we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue before year's end. we have one house, that's it. the presidency and the senate and the democrats' hands. a lot of people are putting forth a theory and i actually think it has merit where you give the president the 2% increase that he's talking about, the rate increase on the top 2%. and all of a sudden the shift goes back to entitlements. i actually am beginning to believe that is the best route for us to take. >> that's significant and, jon, that's from your home state of tennessee. you have two republicans that are -- two republican senators who have been the most active in trying to seek out deals. in a really conservative state. >> really conservative. >> it's not like there's a safe political play there. >> no. >> for them at all. >> not at all. >> if you want to look at a state where you could be primaried from a tea party

challenge you could do it. senator alexander, the former governor, two weeks ago i think started his re-election to try to prevent this which people took as a sign he was going to try to play a key role in making something happen. >> yeah. >> be and corker has been talked about a lot. he made a very early impression when he first got to washington as someone in the howard baker mode of slightly less ideological, let's get something done. >> well, that's good news, right, mika? we're talking. >> fairly good jobs numbers on friday and all indications there isn't a deal -- >> can i just stop you there. i hate interrupting. you know how much i hate interrupting. >> george washington hated to interrupt. >> i just want to warn you, though, i'm worried about you as the father of this tv show. >> yeah. >> i have found you cannot say anything about the job numbers anymore. >> why? >> you say, oh, it's down to 2.1%, that's kind of good.

it doesn't matter what you say, those jobs numbers, one side or the other is going to absolutely freak out. 7.7% is better than 9.5%. i understand not as many people involved in trying to find jobs and more people -- i understand that. but it's a big old ew and you take it all together and you go 7.7%. but you said pretty good job numbers on friday. you can't say that anymore. people on both sides knocking your head off. >> if you look at them since the past four years how they are, they're back to below when the president took office which does help. it is good news. it's better. all i'm saying they don't reach a deal some economists believe it will impact the jobs situation and impact those numbers and at this point i don't think both sides can afford that. >> i think what you need whenever looking at these jobs numbers to show the restraint of

mike barnicle's good friend welch and stay on the sideline. >> you don't blurt things out. >> let the numbers speak for themselves. let them breathe. >> another barnicle -- another barnicle friend comes to mind. >> who is that? >> senator moynihan. said we're entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. if you can't talk about it then it's or well bean. >> it's stupid. some people still think on the far, far, far right. they few, though, i'm going to say, that it's still a week before the election. i've noticed a lot of the people on the far right, not the far, far right, willie, it's like they get the memo. our stupidity was not rewarded on election day. perhaps we're going to have a more fact-based view of the

political scene not the entire world. >> bill kristol said it about turning down the conservative -- what did he call it? >> entertainment complex. >> time to tone that down, and then you see it from john boehner, you heard bob corker talk about it in these negotiations. they know their position has changed. they know they have to give a little bit. talking about raising revenue inside washington. >> mika, i'm going to look for the quote while you're doing what you do. >> on the sunday talk shows -- >> bill kristol's quote -- >> -- just really almost on complete completely different planets. here is kevin mccarthy and senator dick durbin. take a listen. >> the president wants the rate to go up, that's not a problem. we don't want to be back here in another year, another ten years answering the same questions. the president is asking for higher rates, more revenue. most economists agree the best way to get that is through closing special loopholes. and, you know what, when you close those, it makes a fair tax

process. >> i can tell you i don't want to do it. the president doesn't want to do it but we need to solve the problem. we can not allow the reckless position to drive this economy into another recession. a recession which the republicans will own. >> okay. so they'll blame the recession on the republicans. >> kevin mccarthy is right. you can close a lot of loopholes. that's the way i prefer it. you look at the numbers, you're not just going to close the loopholes and get to a trillion dollars in revenue. this bill kristol quote, mika, bill kristol has a great column. i'm going to re-tweet it right now. every great cause begins as a movement. this is a quote that he applies to the gop. every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket. and that's exactly what happened. you had the great conservative revolution of 1980. and you had heritage and a lot of other organizations grow up out of that. and all the intellectual thrust

politically was on the republican side from 1980 to, say, 1990, the democratic party was tired, liberalism was exhausted. but that turned into a business. we saw a couple this past week -- a couple of republican consultants got paid tens of millions of dollars and then it becomes a racket and that's when you have a lot of people running around saying harsh things that sell books and push ratings and lose elections. and that's where we are. conservatism is a racket for a lot of people to get very, very rich. >> and the bill buckley climate of talking about ideas, the first neocons, back before that was an epitaph, you know -- bill's father, the democrats had become cold war conservatives.

were willing to call the soviet union what it was. >> right. >> it was a huge -- that was the intellectual breakthrough for the cold war. and starting in 1978 with howard jarvis, the anti-statism. what is -- we had an era with reagan that was ratified by clinton when he said the era of big government is over but we don't know quite what we're in now except we want lots of things and we don't want to pay for them. >> and you know, mika -- >> that's exactly it. >> you see the missed opportunities. it's not just the stupid things that are said on talk radio or that are written in books. or that hurt the conservative -- hurts the conservative cause. it's what is not said like, for instance, yesterday christophe wrote an extraordinary op-ed talking about how conservatives have a point. that the liberal welfare state actually discourages in many

cases hard work and discourages peop people. they gave the great example how ssi benefits actually cause parents in the appalachians to discourage their children from taking classes to get good grades. if their children get good grades and do well in school they won't get their $500 or $600 a month for having a disabled child. if you have a movement that has been reduce d to obama bad, democrats' marxists, you have no one like earvin crystal to write and explain what this means and explain how we are right and we have been right, and our

philosophy is a governing philosophy for the future. but that's been stripped away by the anti-intellectualism of the past decade and the conservative cause. do you see the christophe -- >> i did. we have an excerpt here. this is from "the new york times" yesterday, profiting from a child's illiteracy. this is painful to admit but conservatives have a point when they suggest that america's safety net can sometimes entangle people in a soul crushing dependency. our property programs do rescue many people but other times backfire. some people here don't join the military. a traditional escape route. disability payments, most wrenching of all are the parents who think it's best if a child stays illiterate because then the family may be able to claim a disability check each month. there's no doubt some families with seriously disabled children receive a life line from ssi, but the bottom line is that we

shouldn't try to fight poverty with that program that sometimes perpetuates it. >> mike barnicle, there are people like michael gersten and pete waner who do attempt to push forward this message in an intelligent way. you take wayner, i got some press reports, that he helped write romney's speech, which was very exciting, and he threw it all away. these types of people who have the ability to make -- >> and the speech -- >> a compassionate conservative argument, they're thrown to the side because they don't sound enough like glenn beck or a blogger. >> well, is there enough -- is there enough breathing room for a legitimate argument that christophe poseses that he

writes about for mitt romney. >> what do you do to a bully? you punch them in the face do you think they would push back? no, they're cowards. they're bullies. p punch them in the face. bullies do that. mitt romney, and we said it nonstop for two years he would never stand up to these bullies. and so they framed his campaign and he got his tail whipped. >> how many moments did he have? six? >> thousands. thousands. coming up, a biblical perspective on developing one's career. best-selling author tim keller. >> i hope he's in a good mood. >> and meacham. he's going to be in a great mood. >> what faith can teach us about our jobs. also ahead, hallelujah, how

a once obscure song has become one of the most widely recorded tracks. music journalist alan light joins us in just a few minutes. but first here's bill karins. >> not so acclaimed. >> with a check on the forecast. i hope you had a wonderful week. winter rolled in in a big way. talking about the midwest going from mild temperatures to this. it looks like a snow globe. someone shook it up and down into the dakotas. had a foot of snowfall between st. cloud and minneapolis and it's cold on top of it, too. it's not a fun morning to be out there scraping the ice off your car or shoveling the driveway. airport wise, we have a little fog in the east. philadelphia, a one-hour delay. the new york city airports amazingly are doing well. boston, you look okay with some of that rain and d.c. is doing okay. a lot of the nasty stuff is in northern new england. we had snow and fraezing rain.

right now just snow from bangor, maine, northward. not a hot of other areas with rain this morning. the exception being down there in the south. look at the windchill. it is 17 in dallas. i mean, we just opened the door to the freezer down into texas but look at new orleans. you're at 71. you're warm and humid. so a lot of cold air behind it and that's why we'll see some thunderstorms today down there. we've already got them. they should be causing some delays on the roads and the airlines for new orleans and atlanta as we go throughout the morning. eventually that rain will make its way into the northeast. most will be with the front later on this afternoon into this evening. we're not going to get severe weather but it will be unusually wa warm. you'll notice it as soon as you walk out the door. and then the front kicks through and we return to winter tomorrow but not that bad. not like the central plains with temperatures there in the 40s from new york down to d.c. so the bottom line for travel today, eastern seaboard possible. airport delays and in the midwest be careful on the roads.

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"the new york times" best-selling author tim keller.

he is co-author of the new book "every good endeavor: connecting your work to god's work." it is extraordinary. we were talking about it off the air. you started -- i don't know -- you started in a ditch somewhere and now you have seven services and now you have this huge place on the upper west side. it is remarkable how much redeemer has grown. how many members? >> probably about 6,000 people coming now. it took a while, 24 years. >> but, boy -- >> it took jesus 33. >> actually three. >> it depends on how you look at it. >> oh, boy, a couple of theologians. >> step aside. >> one of the things that's so fascinating about redeemer, you go outside of new york and other places, and i grew up -- when preachers talk about temptations, they talk about the big ones, you know.

don't be a drunk or don't have sex with, you know, all the people -- all over the place. don't do this. i was about to make a barnicle reference and i stopped. i noticed at redeemer that you hammer home one of the greats has to do with work. >> yeah. >> and being obsessed with your work and being obsessed with success. a lot of it has to do with where you are. but that cuts to 0 the heart of this book. and that is what is the good work? what's the good endeavor? >> the title is taken from john coal train. he had a spiritual awakening and he said that that spiritual awakening changed his attitude to his own work and his ability to make music. the problem is when you make your work your identity, which of course is what we're invited to do in our culture, you identify with your work. and that means if if you are

success lffu successful, it destroys you because it goes to your head. if you are not successful, it destroys your heart. and what you need with faith, faith gives you an identity that is not with work accomplishment and that gives you insulation against the weather changes. so if you're successful, you stay humble. you could have some balance. making your work an idol is maybe the big sin of new york city. >> and that's what you keep going back to, again, your church is the success. idolatry, chasing success, and resentment of others who are almost as successful or more successful of you. that is, again, not just for this city but for a lot of people now. >> but new york sets the tone, especially people in the professions. and that's a reason why.

that's a little unusual. to hammer that as the great sin. i think that's what people are dealing with here. >> yeah. and that becomes the obsession, jon. you sort of push your family aside. you start pushing your friends aside. you start pushing everybody aside for success. does it work? >> how do you in a pastoral sense strike the balance, though? because there is a biblical and a theological mandate, certainly a body of teaching that you take joy in what you can do. >> right. >> that you are fulfilling a certain destiny here. as long as you understand every idol is a good thing. idols aren't bad things. to make sex, power and money an idol doesn't make it bad and

actually when you turn the good thing into an ultimate thing then it becomes a demon. it judges you if you don't satisfy it, it curses you. it becomes a god and i think what coltrane was trying to say music just became music. it was no longer the currency of self-esteem and he realized before making music was about him. he did it in order to make himself feel good about himself. and once god filled his soul, music became about other people. i now do it to serve people. and so work is a great thing when it's a servant instead of the lord. >> do you think that in our culture today with all its accelerants and all of its instantaneous satisfaction that we have lost the concept of there is a dignity to work, no matter what level you're working, there's a dignity to

it. >> yes. >> a meaning to it. >> yes. of all the christian teachings on that, martin luther said, here is the biblg. it says that god feeds everyone. but how does he actually feed us? well, the farm girl milking the cow. the truck driver bringing the milk to market. the grocer. that's how god feeds us, through other people's work and, therefore, even the most menial tasks -- i don't think a lot of skill and don't pay very well like the girl milking the cow on the farm, is doing god's work. luther and it was really, really good at saying all work is god's work, all work has dignity. >> refirmation. >> a couple of quotes on the dangers of pride. pride gets no pleasure out of having something.

only out of having more of it for the next man. we say that people are proud of being rich or clever or good looking but they are not. they are proud of being richer or clever er. >> that's another way to get at the idolatry thing. when the wealth becomes your self-esteem, it becomes something that drives you and something you can't give away. >> one interpretation of the christian story it's all about reversal. how much does that inform your arg argument here? >> i think actually it does mean that work -- if you see work as service, lake i mentioned with martin luther, if you see it as service. robert bella makes a great statement where he says, we need to capture the idea that work is

calling to serve the greater good rather than just a means of individual advancement. so if work -- you can be doing the very same work at the same level, maybe making the same money, and have a certain attitude. that is to say i'm doing this to serve. this is what can koltrane and your attitude will be different. there will be humidity. you will see it. a poise and ease and so i do think that reversal can happen inside work and yet two people can be sitting side-by-side doing the very same work at the same level with completely different attitudes, a servant attitude and a masterful attitude. >> all right, tim keller, it's always great to have you here. always great to see you. >> short and sweet. >> we can make it longer if you want. it's a fantastic book. wherever i go, i tell people

about redeemer, they say so many things about your remarkable work. >> well, come by again. >> i will. the book is "every good endeavor" and up next one of the most widely recorded songs in music history and it almost never saw the light of day. music journalist alan light is here with the story behind that song. you won't take my life. you won't take our future. aids affects us all. even babies. chevron is working to stop mother-to-child transmission. our employees and their families are part of the fight. and we're winning. at chevron nigeria, we haven't had a reported case in 12 years. aids is strong. aids is strong. but we are stronger. and aids...

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♪ hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah ♪ >> that's jeff singing "hallelujah." alan light, the book explores the unlikely journey from obscurity to modern day hymn. it's great to have you on the sh show. >> thanks for having me. >> first of all, tell us how that happened. >> it happened over a long period of time. leonard cohen first reported "hallelujah" in 1984. his label turned down the album it was on. it came out to no notice at all. and over the course of 10, 15, 20 years, more people discovered

this song. jeff buckley recorded it in 1994. after jeff buckley's death it got more notice and then people started to pick up on the magic of this song, put it in soundtracks, on tv shows. more and more people recorded it. >> it's everywhere. >> wainwright is nothing short of extraordinary. >> it was on the soundtrack to "shrek" one of the key moments in getting this out there. there are now 350-some recordings of this song and thousands more performances by bob dylan and u2 and, you know, everybody all around the world knows this song. >> but it almost didn't happen. it languished in obscurity. >> first when leonard was writing it, he strug wld it for years. he said he wrote 75 verses to the song. he can't figure out what the song was and then finally got an edit he could live with and recorded it. turned the album in and columbia records said, sorry, we're not

interested. >> it's interesting talking just before the segment began, if you listen to leonard cohen 15, 20 years ago, the first time you hear it, oh, that's clearly not going to work, the voice, the tempo, the narrative song. but they grow on you. and this particular song is just epic. >> somebody in the book says leonard's voice is like the first time you drink whiskey, the first time you have beer, you have to get used to the taste of it before you figure out the appeal. but hearing other people and other voices, beautiful voices, katie lang, the people who have -- justin timberlake who have performed this song over the years that's been a way for people to get inside it without having to get past that voice. >> what was the beginning of your journey with the book? >> honestly, i was sitting in -- keep the religion theme going this morning -- i was in yom kippur services and the choir came out on the holiest day of

the jewish calendar and sang "hallelujah." i could see people weeping, that everyone knew it. wow, this song is in a different place now if this is a pop song. >> you're orthodox, right? >> me, myself. when i show up for holidays, then this is what comes and meets me. the same year that katie lang sang it to open the olympics, that justin timberlake did it at the haiti telethon. this thing is everywhere now. how did that happen? >> have you guys done -- >> that's the next one. >> it's one of the things that always surprised me. went to pensacola catholic high school and, you know, kind of southern baptist. you play the piano and they whip out the acoustic guitar and started singing "blowing in the wind." but this song has spiritually

touched so many people. >> the really unique thing, it's a song you have the ability to turn up or turn down these different elements of. if you want the more religious, the more spiritual feeling, it's there to emphasize. jeff can buckley's version was a much morrow antic singing about heartbreak and young pain and a sensual version of this song. use what it is that it says to you. >> what's fascinating bringing up dylan singing this song, i'm reminded of slow train coming when he converted to christianity, and that's a really powerful song on there like "precious angel" all these years later still powerful. there's something about mixing -- my grandmother would not approve -- so many rock stars, are not dylan, so many rock stars from the deep south came out of the church choir to

rock 'n' roll and some of the gre greatest rock stars bring that soul from their church. >> and leonard cohen, like dylan, somebody who has been a spiritual seeker, who is now a jewish buddhist monk who has spent years on top of the mountain. these are people who, you know, when you are living in that world of ideas and thoughts and poetry striving for these greater things, looking for these larger themes and dylan has always, even for, as you know, decades before slow train coming was working with biblical imagery and drawing on those languages and ideas. this song pulls so many of those different strands together. >> you hear that. you do. you hear that in the mousse usi. this song in weddings, in funerals, in religious services

fills that kind of a space in people's lives. >> the book is "the holier the broken." alan light. >> alan brought me -- >> fantastic. that's so cool. thank you so much. >> thank you, guys, so much. always a pleasure. up next, cnbc's brian sullivan. we're at walmart with the simmons family.

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he loves risk. but whether he's climbing everest, scuba diving the great barrier reef with sharks, or jumping into the market, he goes with people he trusts, which is why he trades with a company that doesn't nickel and dime him with hidden fees. so he can worry about other things, like what the market is doing and being ready, no matter what happens, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense, from td ameritrade. 44 past the hour. it's time now for business before the bell. cnbc's brian sullivan for that. brian, what do you have? >> reporter: still the fiscal

cliff. good morning and happy monday, guys. it's kind of a weird day out there. a little foggy. erskine bowles, he of simpson-bowles was on "squawk box" this morning and put the number to it. he thought there was a 40% chance that a deal would get reached by the end of the year. a 30% chance that the deal would get done early next year and then the remainder, whatever that might be, would be never and he called that chaos. so really it's all about the fiscal cliff, guys. i wish i had something a little more light and fun for you on a monday morning. >> nothing like going through friday's numbers, down to 7.7%. a lot of chatter over the weekend that was only because people were getting out of the workforce in record numbers, et cetera, et cetera. what's your take? what's wall street's take on the numbers on friday? >> reporter: it's like this. it's like i reported on friday. it's better than expected. what we did in our "street signs" was why are the expectations so low? i went through the numbers, back to 2002, ten years ago.

57 months in the past ten years, we have gained more than 200,000 jobs, but now 146,000 is considered good because the expectations are low. so, yes, the number was better than expected but i think as a nation many people we talked to say up to the point where we could add 200,000, 250,000 jobs a month because that will help reduce the deficit. growth is actually the best solution to reducing the deficit. it's not tax hikes. it's not spending cuts. it's growth. we need to get people back to work and at fair wages. i think it's the lowered expectation in america that has some people worried. if we can get this cliff deal behind us, though, most people we talk to, joe and mika, say, listen, we should be able too much better growth in 2013. let's hope they're right. for every 1% gdp that we grow, we will add $3 trillion over a decade. so talk about a trillion in savings from tax hikes over a

decade, $3 trillion if we can add another percent a year to u.s. growth. that's a big number. >> all right, brian. hey, brian, by the way, check out -- this sounds random, but i read an atlantic monthly article -- we had a guest on last week talk about how insourcing is the wave of the future. jeff immelt -- >> reporter: heard of him. >> an article in i think the hartford business review back in march talked about insourcing. it's the future. general electric, bringing jobs back from overseas. and some people even suggesting that outsourcing was a fad, a shortsighted fad that not only was bad for american workers but was bad for american business. >> reporter: i know you guys are avlade "street signs" viewers of my show. >> we are. >> reporter: we had the author on the show thursday. ironically, came to us from mexico city. but it's a good news story. i love the story. the only problem is this.

the wages now that the workers -- and kudos to the workers because they've made deals and it's been painful for the workers, that the costs -- this is terrible. the cost now of manufacturing and i.t. in america in places like detroit all in is now lower than mumbai. and it's a good thing that the jobs are coming back. the problem is that while the jobs are back, the pay isn't. wages are much lower than they used to be. it's tough. >> that is bad news. we'll still take the jobs and hope that higher paying jobs will dpr will grow up around that. >> reporter: the best help is a good paying job. >> brian sullivan, thank you very much. up news "saturday night live" gives us the real reason president obama agreed to negotiate with speaker boehner. (announcer) when subaru owners look in the mirror,

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this weekend on "saturday night live," the writers took aim at the fiscal cliff negotiations. last night "snl" revealed the real reason the president decided to talk to boehner one-on-one. take a look.

>> in order to get the support of the speaker, i agree there would be no tax increases. i repeat, zero tax increases. now why would i do that? i mean, i won the election. i have the leverage. why give in? well, simply put, i felt sorry for this man. early this week i found my way into the congressional cafeteria and what do i see? john boehner sitting by himself. all alone. not a single member of his party willing to share his company. he didn't even have any milk to drink because, well, tell them why -- >> they had taken my milk and grown it in the garbage. >> they took it and lieu it in the garbage. i was so heartbroken to hear this, i said, look, how about this, john. if you agree to a 1% raise on the top two americans, just two

people, i will dissolve social security. dissolve it. so he took it to the republicans in congress and what do they do? >> invited me to a pizza party. >> and when they got there -- when you got there, sorry -- >> it was a burned out warehouse. >> did you go inside? >> yes. >> and was there any pizza? >> no. >> and then what happened? >> they jumped out and pelted me with eggs. >> fresh eggs? >> rotten eggs.

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is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ] ♪ [ male announcer ] life brings obstacles. usaa brings advice. call or visit us online. we're ready to help. i am deciding to run for office. >> is there another office? >> i'm looking at that a lot as well and trying to get back because life ultimately is not about a position, it's about a purpose. my purpose i try to focus on every single day is how to make a difference in the world around me and the community around me.

i'm thinking about both issues and which one can i better serve on the issues i'm passionate about. welcome back to "morning joe." that, of course, cory booker trying to figure out what he's going to do next. what are you going to do next, mike? >> probably take a nap. >> that's fair enough. >> yep. >> what did you learn today? >> actually i learned something fairly serious from david ignacious about the united states policy to the middle east and egyptian president morsi. calm down. we can't inject our values into that system. we have to let it play out. >> very nice. >> i learned from david, whose novels about this twilight world are so wonderful, that there are no analogies we can point to to take comfort from as we go forward. and so we'd better hope that point "a" is also correct. >> i thought the lincoln analogy was dead on. and what a